As some of you know, some max level characters with access to more than 1 kiel card have the annoying ability to spam such skill as Soul Breaker (assassin cross classes), this makes woe and pvp highly unfair to other users, thus I have come up with an idea I think you may all approve of.

If you don't like it, please add your reply to this topic. if you have any suggestions to my idea please post them as well.


Idea: Reduce the effect of kiel card to only 10% (Per card) depending on the character's max level, on WoE and PvP maps.

This would mean a person with 3 kiel cards would only get a 30% reduce in after-cast delay on woe and pvp maps if their max level is over/equal the set limit.

I think thats too drastic of an MvP card change. At most, I think the reduction should be 20%. This makes getting 100% more difficult, making people go out of their way and making themselves weaker in other fashions to get that spamability.

one kiel should still do 30, any after that should be 5 or 10

i think it should be at 25

I liked the idea someone else had that the first Kiel did 30%, the second did 20% and the last did 10%
But.. what if they just don't stack with themselves?
Then 1 kiel would look like:
(1.0*0.3)
= 0.3
Two would look like:
(1.0*0.3) + ([1-(1.0*0.3)]*0.3)
= 0.3 + 0.21
= 0.51
and Three would look like:
(1.0*0.3) + ([1-(1.0*0.3)]*0.3) + ([1-((1.0*0.3)*0.3)]*0.3)
= 0.3 + 0.21 + 0.147
= 0.657

Add a sprint set and an extra ring and that becomes

0.657 + 0.05 + 0.05 + 0.15 = 0.907

Hmm... maybe just the 30-20-10 thing is better. 90% is a little high... 85% is better.

well if you get around 70% with kiels it's easy to reach 100% with other equips so It needs to be where even with 3 kiels you fall under 50%.

I think the point Kisuka is making is that anything more than 60% reduction of after-skill delay is still too much, cause personally for our current WoE, it's a matter of who can out damage other person's ability to heal themselves with items. I'd gladly give up defense and a little bit of hp for less cast delay, meaning increasing returns on more damage output. I do like the idea of diminishing returns though. For me, I'd have it:

1st card: 30%
2nd card: 15%
3rd card: 5%

Before someone goes saying this is unfair to Kiel users, I'll make two points:

• Add the sprint set and an expert ring for a grand total of 75% after-skill delay reduction. That's still 4x more damage per second coming out of one person. Even with 1 Kiel and the sprint set, that's 50% after-skill delay reduction which is 2x more damage per second. Or just the 3 Kiels without the sprint set is 2x more damage per second.
• FBH is an MVP card that enables 50% more demi-human damage, but in reality it adds relatively the same amount of damage or even less than the 1st Kiel would add. Plus with FBH you have to sacrifice 50% of your total SP along with not being able to wear a different footgear card (Amon Ra, Moon Light, 10% hp, etc.). Who cares about all the other headgear cards for PvP and WoE currently? Kiels all the way, baby! I make this comparison to show that just the 1st Kiel added is probably more useful than an FBH card, which is also quite a sexy card.

I do realize what I propose allows more than 60% cast-delay reduction, but I think this is a good compromise for current Kiel users and players without Kiels. Also it doesn't make it so that 1 Kiel card by itself is somewhat useless, because honestly no person without Kiels at the moment is going to be able to ever get a hold of 3 Kiels, but there is a slim chance they may get 1 so if they get a hold of it, at least it may be useful. So with diminishing returns of Kiels, it encourages users to spread the Kiels around their guild so it's no longer a one man team for WoE and possibly even - oh heaven forbid no - trade them to a player in another guild. Also just the trading part makes them still quite a bit valuable for the 1st Kiel card.

There's probably something I'm leaving out of this concerning some after-cast delay loophole, so if someone could improve upon this idea, that would be awesome.

Possibly just making them unstackable with each other would work...?

The code for doing so is as follows:

{ if (isequippedcnt(4403)==1) bonus bDelayRate,-30; if (isequippedcnt(4403)==2) bonus bDelayRate,-15; if (isequippedcnt(4403)==3) bonus bDelayRate,-10; }

Yeah it might not be a bad idea to simply make them unstackable, though i haven't seen a SINX with 3 Kiels in action before. You can't really stack other MVP cards anyhow, but diminishing the effects of stacking would work at least discourage overpowered builds (30-15-5 sounds reasonable)

more than one kiel reduces hp to 1

bump

Mmm, I just re-read what the original idea was, and I think the only real areas where the card has become a problem are PvP and WoE. So if it were reduced to 10-15% in those situations, I really think that the problem would be resolved. Sure, this may keep the price for the ###### thing pretty high(over 20k credits?!?!), but it targets the issue at its heart and then we don't have to, as it's been put by several people, "Ruin a thing in PvE because something is broken in PvP or WoE."

OFF-TOPIC:
This logic can also be applied to fixing GTB if anyone is interested in coming to a consensus on that...
Idea: Disable GTB on PvP-able maps, including WoE.
ON-TOPIC:

But back to the topic, +1 to Kisu's idea which, and I can attest to this myself, I personally believe was mis-interpreted/mis-read.

@Angelic
I'm pretty sure people understand that it's a nerf for WoE/PvP maps from replies that were given. So I don't think it was misread/misinterpreted.

I sort of already mentioned this, but I don't like the idea of a fixed nerf rather than an increasing nerf because between the two, the fixed nerf hurts the value of the cards the most, while the increasing nerf hurts it less and accomplishes the same thing the fixed nerf does. Also we want these cards to still be useful to obtain for current non-Kiel owners. Getting 1 card that lowers delay by 30% is much better than getting 1 card that lowers delay by 10% to 25%. So a fixed nerf hurts these non-Kiel-ers indirectly.

My guess for a fixed nerf is that the price of a Kiel will drop by 50% while for increasing nerfs, it'll drop about 25%. This is looking on the buyer's value and not the seller's value.

[Off-Topic]
Personally if you want to disable GTB, then we should either make instant cast on PvP/WoE maps to be 245 Dexterity (still very achievable) or reduce MATK to be 1/5 of the original MATK instead of 1/2 for WoE maps. If we increase the Dexterity required for instant cast, then the Emperium needs the ability to heal itself when not under attack and about quadruple the HP as the higher instant cast requirement makes it much harder to defend against breakers (breakers receive no breaking penalty as they don't rely on Skills to break the emp while defenders usually rely on their Skills to kill breakers). I'm a firm supporter of increasing instant-cast on WoE/PvP maps (to becoming pretty much non-existant for other classes to achieve other than Snipers & Super Novice, and adding a skill like Attention-Concentrate to GS so they can hit instant cast too....which this in itself will solve a lot of Kiel issues and make Super Novices WoEers again). But yeah, this GTB discussion belongs in another thread so no more GTB talk. ; D

Mmmm interesting thoughts there Sketches ^.^ Personally I'm of the opinion that they shouldn't be as pricey(or abundant >.>;) as they seem to be, but I suppose maybe that diminishing effect is the best choice after all. My #1 vote of course would be for the non-stackability of the cards, but that may not be the best option after all...

Lets address GTB elsewhere maybe then O.o? Or maybe after this thread gets resolved...

i am agree with sketches..nerf hurts non kiels indirectly...beside that its MVP card and hard to get those...
maybe we should focus more on dex as instant cast....

I'd support this, fact is you can get 4 Kiels with the right equipment. 4 Kiels + sprint set = 55 + 2 Expert rings = 65% which is more then enough.

We already raised the min dex for IC but all that really does in the end is trouble the lower level players(HW,Prof,Ninja) who require instant to level.

Well, actually with 4 kiels at 10% each, you can still get upwards of 70% on any normal character:

4 kiels = 40%
sprint set(shoes, mail, ring) = 20%
1 expert = 5%
+6 parade hat = 10%
Total of 75%

Anything that can use a Dark Thorn Staff can get up to 15% from that as well(90% total O.O). Either way, this is all in support of what you were saying Lagia.

However, I still think that an overall nerf of non-stackability is the best option. Example:

1 kiel = 30%
sprint set = 20%
1 expert = 5%
+6 parade = 10%
Total: 65%

OR

1 kiel = 30%
diablos robe = 10%
2 experts = 10%
+6 parade = 10%
Total = 60%

Both are still pretty dam high and enable for some nice skill spammability. Then theres always the sniping suit for snipers enabling around 73%(23% from the suit).

The only skills people are really complaining about is soul breaker... dropping Kiels aftercast reduction to 10% per card
Ultimately makes the card useless, we all know that, The only real skills that are overpowered with a large number of Kiels
(This being more than one (This is just off the top of my head so don't yell at me if I miss one))
Soul Breaker, 10k 3 times a second rather unavoidable
Pressure, only 2k damage per hit Unavoidable, and saps sp
Acid Demonstration, Up to 50k per hit need I say more?
Tarot Card of Fate, sorta, mostly for its coma effect Ultimately just very lame

Anyways, My fix for these skills, is what I refer to as an Individual aftercast, This is where you cant cast that particular skill for a duration, but are free to cast or use any other.
Examples of this Individual aftercast, are Magnum Break (You cant cast magnum break for 2 seconds after using it)
and Soul Burn (You cant cast Soul Burn for 15 seconds after using level 5 soul burn 10 seconds for levels 1~4)
Anyway. The Amount of Individual aftercast added to the skills mentioned above should, in my opinion, be half of its normal aftercast (Cept all aftercast for Acid Demonstration Since its so powerful)
so, Soul Breaker with an aftercast of 2.8 seconds (for level 10) should have an IAC of 1.4 seconds
Pressure with an aftercast of 5 seconds (for level 5) should have an IAC of 2.5 seconds
And Tarot which has an aftercast of 3 seconds, should have an IAC of 1.5 seconds

Doing this, doesn't kill the card which is an achievement to have one of, doesn't ultimately screw over those who have two, and doesn't encourage suicidal tendencies in those who have three, coz that's just not cool .__.

Oooh, I just had an Idea. A rather sexy one at that. Instead of screwing over the kiel cards, why not make a ACD (after cast delay) cap. With an ACD cap, things won't be spammable. Stuff can still hurt like a mofo, but it'll still limit the capabilities of those already with 100% ACD reduction. I would recommend making this cap somewhere between 80-90%.

(Also, if you talked about this in the thread already, I probably didn't read it, so....yeah. lol)

@Lagia
I mentioned to raise the instant cast for WoE/PvP maps only, which I'm almost certain is quite doable as certain mechanics do get affected by WoE rules and only on WoE maps. This way people aren't affected outside of WoE maps. I say more about this in my previous response to Angelic.

@Minnie
It isn't fair to just punish certain classes without taking away the ability to spam from others. There's always other skills that will pop up if you only target certain skills. If we went with the after-cast delay of skills route, then we should go Shade's direction, though I think it's better to have more like 75% max. 90% is too much.

Yeah, 80-90% is still a little high imo Shade O.O

I used to play another server where they had the same issue but it was with Stalkers(who could copy trans skill as well) and basically, although kiels could not stack(this is where i got the idea >.>), they had other methods of obtaining ACD reduction, including a pair of wings that reduced as much a a kiel but required a very hard quest using MVP items(MVPs aren't broken on this server...) to obtain, and they would copy Pressure and spam it at like 200kph raping anyones sp within a few seconds and their hp almost as fast(4k a hit because of the higher max level at 170). ANYWAYS, they capped the ACD at like.... 65-70% i think? I can always check, but they capped it and complaints immediately stopped.

So yeah, an ACD cap would be nice. In fact, with it possibly being maxed out at 75-ish%, a player wouldn't have use for more than 1 maybe 2 kiels. Refer to my examples in my previous post for info on that ^.~

What my idea did wasn't punnishing classes by taking away the ability to spam, It just prevents skills that aren't meant to be spammed from being spammed, Although I like the idea of 80% max ACD either way your all still going to die

Almost every skill in RO was never supposed to be spammable. Instant cast wasn't supposed to be reachable by any class other than Snipers and GS.** Also there's only 2 headgear slots available at most for official servers (also getting that mid-headgear slot is almost a farfetched dream). And even with the two headgear slots, you usually had to choose between Berzebub (AKA Beelzebub) and Kiel, with WoE HW, Snipers, & GS preferring Kiel while basically every other class preferring Berzebub. Here Berzebub is just a useless card due to IC being too easy to obtain.

**(Supernovices can reach IC, but that was an oversight. If you ever read the main page for Super Novices on their website when it was first released, they basically stated that it was a completely for fun class that was not meant to be in PvP ever. Later on after people made IC Super Novices, they erased that line out of the Super Novice page.)

Won't that drive people away from WoE? I'd prefer a fix to the Kiel card and not the WoE maps so lower leveled characters are still encouraged to take part in WoE while the issue of Kiels is fixed. I think it is unfair to lower leveled players/guilds who wish to take part in WoE/PvP.

I don't think it would drive people away as much as it already does. Can you think of a low level person that can WoE effectively by themselves with casted skills? Like a level 200 can sit there for 5 minutes with ten level 100s hitting him/her and just laugh at the feeble attempts.

Example: I once sat in a room filled with over 8 low level defenders (all around 100 - 130) just to see how long it would take them to kill me when I'm in a low def, breaker build....after 2 minutes, I still had half of my hp left and didn't use a single healing item. I never got to find out how long it would really take them as WoE ended.

And most low level players that I've seen on this server use ASPD builds with no usage of their class skills so the higher dex requirement for instant cast wouldn't really affect them. They just aim to break the Emperium in unguarded castles. It definitely would affect low level HW aiming to freeze, but they're always paired up with a higher level character. Can't really think of another class that would be hit hard.

Like I said in a previous reply, if we make the Dex requirement to be like 245 for instant cast (and also change the formula so that it reduces exponentially instead of by fixed fractions), it would actually make it fairer for weaker players. Higher level characters can no longer IC them to death really quickly and many of these low level characters never could gain instant cast anyways without outputting almost no damage at all. If it were up to my say to make it fairer for the weaker players, I'd say 260 dex for instant cast on WoE maps and all HP healing items disabled.

Oh and if the dex was increased for instant cast, then it means a WoE rule for an aspd nerf should be implemented to balance it out. So aspd should be more like 186 max. Not sure what the exact fair number would be to balance out the instant cast but a non-biased GM should be able to figure this out after hearing two sides argue for a bit. But for this aspd nerf, in order to hit the highest aspd for WoE, they would have to have the 192 aspd mark for outside of WoE. So basically it's a different formula calculation inside of WoE for aspd where 192 aspd becomes 186 or whatever the agreed upon number is.

I'm just testing this out but, from the other topic from months ago:

I think I've thought of something that will resolve the main reason why kiels are OP. Add a -20% aspd to a kiel. While people who have a kiel for leveling aren't going to notice a huge difference, it's when you try to stack enough agi to spam that you get capped by the aspd.

And just for some testing purposes, I used a doomslayer and a tomahawk. Tomahawk is aspd neutral, doomslayer is -40% aspd

At:
176 aspd -> 166 with doomslayer
183 aspd -> 173 with doomslayer
188 aspd -> 178 with doomslayer

Since as people who have kiels know, aspd reduces the time between attacks. having around -40% aspd or so comes pretty close to balancing it. Reducing the effectiveness of kiels through reducing the aftercast reduction is reasonable, but from what I know, more after-cast reduction items are in the game now and I'm pretty sure it can still get to a pretty ungodly amount of spam.

Years ago before spell reflect cards, I played with a Super Novice on a 99/70 server that had no after cast delay. The build was no agi invested, enough dex for 149, and rest into int. Even with the low amount of aspd, my Super Novice could drop a berserked LK in 5 seconds and everything else in less than 1 or 2 seconds. Aspd really doesn't make a difference for certain skills, so I'd have to say no to lowering aspd as the solution. Maybe only part of the solution. Also it shouldn't be nerfed outside of PvP and WoE, so if we did add an Aspd nerf, it would have to be only for PvP and WoE.

So, you know, making it not stackable totally DOESN'T solve the issue >.>;

make it so that one kiel makes u blind 2 kiels make you cursed and 3 kiels make you poisoned and bleeding, can not be stopped by vit or cards

No comment Cab >.>;

and BUMP

really need a final decision on WHAT WAY to nerf/balance multiple kiels. seems as though we have like 4 ideas posted right now -.- please come to an agreement.

From what I saw (listing them in order of preference and with a bit of my spin on it):

1) Raise IC for Woe/PvP maps to at least 245 dex**. Don't touch the Kiels.

Pros: Solves the spamming problem for the most part and for people that do still achieve spammability, they will most likely have to sacrifice immunities or damage. Makes a lot of lower level people happier.

Cons: P*sses off a lot of the higher level people because they want to be able to take on groups of people by themselves without sacrificing anything (soloing groups of people shouldn't be possible in the first place -.-). May p*ss off lower level people that don't understand that it's for PvP/WoE maps only and how this is really for their benefit.

**I would also add raising the vit/int/luk immunity stat requirements to the list along with halving aspd for the same amount of agi/dex for WoE/PvP maps only to make it even more balanced and give lower level people a better chance at WoE, but that would p*ss off the higher level people even more. Not to mention raising the emp's HP by 3x damage as our emp breaking damage output is over 3x on this server than on a 99/70 server (this makes it more difficult for a solo level 200 player to break the emp at the last 5 minutes and crushing a small guild's hopes and dreams).



2) ACD Cap (Shade's idea) but only to 75%.

Pros: Nerfs Kiel a bit while keeping the 1st and 2nd Kiel card quite valuable. Encourages extra Kiel cards to be traded. Keeps overpowered Kiel users still overpowered (sort of a con too but need a compromise). Also makes sure there are no loopholes to achieving past 75% ACD.

Cons: Still doesn't solve the spamming from skills that have no cast-delay. Also makes people with 3 Kiels a lot weaker, which in turn makes them angry.



3) (1st page group idea) Diminishing returns from Kiel cards (30-15-5-5).

Pros: Nerfs Kiel a bit while keeping the 1st Kiel card quite valuable. Encourages extra Kiel cards to be traded. Keeps overpowered Kiel users still overpowered (sort of a con too but need a compromise).

Cons: Still doesn't solve the spamming from skills that have no cast-delay. Also makes people with 3 Kiels a lot weaker, which in turn makes them angry. Leaves loopholes for lowering ACD past what was planned.



4) Make the Kiel cards unable to stack. (Angelic's idea)

Pros: Fixes Kiel problem. Forces Kiel users to spread out their cards to others.

Cons: Hurts Kiel users too much and lowers the value of the Kiel cards the most. Summons the angry Kiel-using mob.



5) Fixed Kiel returns. (Kisuka's idea) Make it 15-15-15-15.

Pros: Fixes Kiel problem.

Cons: Kiels users will just hold onto their Kiels for sure and people that don't have Kiels don't benefit as much from getting their 1st Kiel.



You probably want to put an in-game vote on what to do (leave it up for at least 4 days), but the problem is most people in-game are not well-informed. You may also want to have a forum vote too (sort of like a Senate and House of Rep vote, but not really).

I really, REALLY like the first idea Sketches repeated. Not only does that greatly help with the Kiel situation, but it will making PvPing so much more...INTERESTING. It will be an actual CHALLENGE. That's so weird!

It also doesn't completely destroy the card. I'd feel awful if the three card combo was made useless for the folks that worked hard to get them. ):

I prefer the idea of having kiel cards unstackable, since they weren't even supposed to be obtained more than once.

if they werent meant to be obtained more than once why did they make it a headgear card, the things with the most slots next to accessory. They just areant meant for a high level server.

Raising IC will cause many problems seeing it would be a big blow to magic based chars and a not so big problem to snipers and other non cast required groups... I do agree that HW and ninjas are just about the most OP classes out there but making IC that large of a number would make them cry even more then when the GTB hit the cash shop.

And kiels are not the only thing that diminish ACD... You can reach about 46% with the right stuff, and a nice bard / clown can bragi you giving you another 50% those combined is better than 3 kiels on its own... I can tell after kiels are done people will always find ways to stop ACD because as a 200 HW the only thing holding you back from reaching max damage is the wait between spells.

The SP thing was the only thing on the right track, making the cards still usefull but having a downside. I am more for keeping their same affect because they obviously want 0 ACD pretty bad, but in turn taking something away from them that is not connected. Something like lowering damage on boss monsters and demi humans.

I believe the best solution is to have it diminish SP as you wear it, but also have it cancel SP regeneration while it is on so people do not regen stack to make it not affect them. And to prevent them from just taking it off when they are not using it, make it drain all of your SP on unequip. Therefore they will only get this godly power for so long. In addition making SP healing items have no effect when worn.

The problem is that they could just use ygg berries and get back on action.

1 Other solution i've thought is reducing the heal item effects at WoE when you wear kiel cards, mixed with the complete sp removal upon removing kiel card AND a % of sp drain per sec while equipping kiel card (Only for WoE, of course).

@cabbage
What you said about the problem of raising IC makes it sound like we'd function in PvP/WoE just like how a 99/70 server does. Oh the horror of it. Which is pretty much what I'm proposing does (raising the IC and stat immunities). Like a level 150 WS may actually own a level 200 sinX simply by Hammerfalling them to death. I mean you'd never see a level 75 WS kill a level 99 sinX, right? (actually it's quite common on a 99/70 server)

But really if everything I said was implemented (the higher IC, stat immunities, halved aspd for WoE/PvP) then I'd say to nerf GTB somehow. Either disable it or increase the SP usage to the amount it was supposed to hurt (so like 20x instead of 2x).

Also your Kiel thing with the SP usage sort of makes the Kiel card somewhat unusable. It's just a tad too drastic when you add the "no SP items" onto it. I'd say to do what I said with the GTB (make it consume a ton more SP in PvP/WoE). Probably like 3x more sp usage per card. It makes it hard to spam when they also have to gulp down SP items. The problem with this though it that it has no effect on Asura Champs.

Well, for one, Ken is right that they originally weren't meant to be obtained in multiples. Official servers = 2 headgear slots. RRO = 4 headgear slots. And you also have to consider how LOOOOW the chance is that someone would actually get a hold of 2 Kiel cards on the official servers, much less all the other gear that would be combined to give them 100% reduction.

Sketches, as is, there are waaaaaaay too many Kiels on the server to begin with, so reducing their value by, say, making them unstackable, is a GOOD thing. Increased SP consumption, whether its 2x or 2000x, isn't going to help anything if a HW or an LK can 1-2 shot anyone and then just "re-load" so to speak after the kill.

@sketches
Psh on IRO i could insta cast my ninja at level 53. Its not truthful at all that it would make pvp like a 99/70 server because PVP there is ruled by proffessors and creators. Seeing they have relatively faster casting. Ive known multiple people with multiple MVP cards on those kinds of servers. It is in fact easier to obtain them on official servers because of the population. the economy is sexy and there are so many of the same item in the game it's unbelievable.

The fact is, why make the change so drastic that it would be better not to have a kiel than just some ACD gear and a bragi. People buy kiels because they dont always have access to bragi and other ACD items. So its like a permanent version of that. so I agree there should be consequences because it kind of renders bards useless but it should not change their ability to spam. Just some other consequences is all.

and exactly what i meant it gives you 2 slots in official servers too

yes 2 means multiple because it is more than 1.
Also in renewal there is a slotted lower gear. emperor wreath or something... the product of a large quest i believe.

And if your suggestion forces to make nerfs to other items then we would become even further from official servers which is what your trying to do?

and if the no SP items thing put it over the top then we just wont do that but have the others.

I would GREATLY prefer if the nerf applied to PvP/WoE maps only. I don't PvP much at all, so having a card that could be useful for leveling nerfed so that I don't even want to use it anymore would be infuriating. Especially after going out and getting it with just the thought of leveling in mind, rather than taking out my fellow players.

Well, Looking at the ideas posted,
The Most Appropriate seems to be an aftercast cap,
Its been explained how many times on the forums, but I'll say it again.
Normal Skill, Need an example here of one with aftercast. Lets go with...Soul Breaker.(Went with this one since its ultimately the one everyones complaining about) =P
Now Pressure at level 10 has a 2.8 second cool down. Woot 2.8 seconds.
now my calculations are going to go over 10 seconds of spamming, with removed human limitations. human limitations are the speed at which you can press the button to activate the skill then click on your emeny to cast it.
with no AC reduction. you can cast SBK 2 times in 6 seconds, lets say each SBK does 10k damage
with 1 Kiel card you can cast SBK 3 times, thats 30k damage in 6 seconds
with two Kiel cards, you can cast SBK 5 times in 6 seconds, thats 50k damage.
With 3 Kiel cards, you can cast SBK 21 times in 6 seconds. thats 210k damage~
As you can see the more aftercast reductions you have the faster it spams, for all those youngins, this is called being Exponential.
Now With the Proposed Cap on reduction, 3 Kiel cards wouldn't give 90% reduction. Lets say the cap is 75%
with 75% reduction. you can cast SBK 7 times in 6 seconds, its still quite a few times at 75. Lets try 68%
With a 68% cap you can cast SBK only 5 times in 6 seconds (same as if it was 60%)
In just 7% AC you get 2 more casts for your 6 seconds, So somewhere between 70% and 80% is where you need to implement your AC cap.

Thats my two cents~
Hope it helps

Personally, I also think an aftercast delay cap is going to be the simplest solution to this problem. It's true that this doesn't solve some issues, like Ninja skill spamming. But honestly, there are a lot of other ways that can be dealt with, and Ninjas aren't the ones we're worried about abusing Kiel cards. I feel that whatever delay reduction a player can achieve without multiple Kiels on iRO would be an appropriate cap here. Of course, we'll have a higher percentage of players here who reach that cap then on iRO, but honestly, I doubt there's much we can do about that short of tampering with the server rates. >.>

While people who use 3-4 Kiel Cards may not be thrilled about it, it seems that the general consensus of the staff and community is that keeping the server as similar to iRO as possible will be the best path for it. People were never meant to obtain multiple Kiel cards, and those who have on official servers are few and far between. If people have to put thought into WoE beyond pressing a button and clicking as quickly as they can, so much the better. That will, at the very least, be a step in the right direction toward the kind of WoE Sketches has alluded to throughout the topic. We can work on the issues with instant cast and status immunity and whatnot later. At least everyone has a fair chance to obtain those without obscene amounts of luck and/or money.

I do not like all this talk of thinking that taking fixing this will make it more like official servers

In offiacial servers everyone does suck however they have power in numbers, we however do not so we try to balance it by making our small numbers be as godly as possible... Trying to make it like official servers where everyone sucks AND there are small numbers will cause problems. Also, on official servers plenty of people have MVP cards.

The thing is we arent trying to have the same experience of a official server because we never will. We are just trying to stay close to the same game, not experience. The kiels may seem to be a problem right now but if we all actually voted and many people played this game, filling our 2 randomized woe maps, many more people will have kiels and they wont matter to much. Then everyone will feel bad they nerfed them when the population was low and the nerf is now very annoying. Then we would have big debates to turn it back.

you have to think of any changes as permanent things that should not only work then but in the long run. I see the godly players against godly players is fun in BG when there are plenty of players but in WoE when it is only one or 2 godly players against 1 godly player it's rather dull. But if we had a godly battle royal that would actually be pretty fun.

so whoever suggested the SP thing over the one that nerfed the effect people actually buy the card for was probably thinking along the same lines as me. Even though the first SP suggestion was useless it was a better idea. The real affect should stop natural sp regen, and drain sp over time, draining all of your sp when unequiped. Therefore keeping the effect that people buy the card for but still having a rather effective consequence.

Also on top of the berries pumpkin pies are now another issue because they can be mass produced and spammed, healing you fully for only 10 pies.

So basically you can drip feed yourself off of pie and absorb damage like a sponge as you tank your way to the emp or as you spam with your kiels

As i said in my ygg poll post it should be for items that heal for %s instead of fixed amounts because that means it is the same as healing yourself at 200 as if you were a level one novice with the same item. Only healing items with a given amount of sp / hp that is fixed should be allowed in WoE.

@Pie
Yeah the nerf for whatever we do should be only for PvP/WoE.

@Cabbage
WoE is unfair right now because you get these smaller guilds with lots of lower level players getting whomped by a single level 200. I find this making godly players actually quite not so fun. My characters are just fine as they are, but I seriously feel sorry for those smaller guilds that I steal the emp from. I just charge in, break their emp, and they can't do a thing about it. That is NOT how a GROUP event is supposed to work.

BG is quite broken too since people stack their teams so it's godly people versus ungodly. I never see it ever being close to balanced fight of godly people fighting each other. It's just a massacre on the weaker players. I stopped doing BG events because winning or losing that easily is really no fun.

I would say that a card like that could be a buyable card with no complaints.

Pumpkin pies are somewhat of an issue in WoE. They do heal you for 5% each so it's 20 pies for a full heal with weight of 1. It pains me to say this, but they should be nerfed in WoE to be only 1.25%.

The problem with taking away percentage items at the moment is that it gives magic attack classes a HUGE advantage. MATK grows at a much faster rate than ATK does so it gives ATK using classes a big disadvantage. That's why I suggested the 245 dex, no % healing items, raised status immunities, halved aspd from agi/dex, and GTB nerfed/disabled in WoE/PvP to help balance things out and put more emphasis on the team effort.